Ainda sobre rações...

[SarahKay]

Olá,

Andei a fazer uma pesquisa pela net acerca da alimentação do Dogue Alemão e deparei-me com uma situação curiosa, existem muitos sites de criadores (E.U.A.) que aconselham ração para adulto logo desde pequenos e nunca ração Puppy?!

Alguém me sabe dizer porquê? Alguns deles dizem que as Puppy são muito gordas....

[SarahKay]

Para completar:

Why We Don’t Feed Puppy Food To Great Dane Puppies

By V. Louise Feddema

Many large and giant breeds are identified with specific limb and joint conditions. Great Danes are susceptible to some of these conditions. Bone disease is often the result of factors other than genetic in these large breed and giant breed dogs.
Great Danes are sometimes subject to lameness during their heavy growth period from between four and eighteen months of age.
Assuming the reader has done his or her homework and gotten his or her dog from an ethical breeder who has taken advantage of testing and genetic registries (OFA, PenHip, CERF- for example) I will go onto other reasons for orthopedic problems.

Dietary Considerations

High intake of calcium is associated with various bone diseases in Great Danes. Some dogs are at risk for osteochodrosis (OCD). Diets high in protein also increase the growth lameness tendencies for large dogs. Most breeders recommend that no vitamin or mineral supplement (other than Vitamin C) be given Great Danes

OCD (Osteochondrosis Dissecans)

This disease often causes temporary or permanent lameness in dogs. This happens when the normal process of bone growth results in cartilage that is replaced by bone, and growth regions are overgrown. This can effect the shoulder. elbow, hock and even the stifle. Protein intake should be less than 25% to help prevent this condition- slower growth may prevent OCD. Give NO calcium supplementation, feed NO puppy foods, as they usually have higher calcium/mineral content.

Pano or “longbone” (Panosteitis)

If you have to have a bone disease, this is the one that you want. It will go away. It is a self-limiting disease that could be called “doggy growing pains”. It should not, however, be ignored. This condition effects the long bones of fast growing young dogs. Lameness is acute and painful, but is not related to injury. Lameness goes from one leg to another, and may go away without treatment. Limit activity, treat pain (usually with analgesics), lower protein ot less than 20% for a few months to slow down growth. Talk to your vet about MSM as a means to aide rehabilitation. Stronger pain medication is available. But should be used with caution and only under a vets supervision.

HOD (Hypertrophied Osteodsytrophy)

This disease may be caused by excessive caloric intake in relation to energy expended. More in, than out! This usually effects Great Danes between the ages of 12 weeks and 7 months of age. First signs are a swelling of the front wrist area-this area is usually hot and tender to the touch. (progress to faulty rear movement-because of pain in the lower back legs). Then, there is a dropping of he front wrist (pastern), splayed feet (toes are spread out flat), the topline (the top of the back) gets curvy (like a Greyhound) and the back legs are tucked under the body (like a Deerhound) making the dog appear deformed. Sometimes the rear legs look “cow hocked” (feet facing outward and hocks facing towards each other) and the front legs may toe inward. In some cases the dog will toe out; when viewing the puppy from straight above the shoulders down to the front feet, the legs will have a knock-kneed appearance. In extreme cases there are high fevers, refusal to eat, and constantly aching joints. This is caused by high protein foods consumed in larger amounts than is actually needed by puppies. Puppies do better on high quality, lower protein food ranging from around 20% to 25% protein.

What the owner can do to help assure proper growth

Adding “people food” can raise the protein levels or imbalance the calcium/mineral ratio.
Keep your puppy well fleshed, but no fat. Remember, slow, steady growth will do more for your puppy than rapid growth that can happen with puppy foods. The puppy will eventually reach its genetic potential, but without the additional risk to bone that comes from high proteins and supplementation (calcium/minerals) or puppy foods.
It is obvious that nutrition is a big part in bone disease in Great Danes….it is really over-nutrition that is the BIG PROBLEM; too much protein, too much calcium/minerals, too much food. Don’t be so nice to your dog that you cripple it or kill it.

To Review:

Do not feed puppy foods, even those developed for giant breeds.

Use a quality brand of dry dog food. Compare labels and get an adult food with lower calcium and protein content.

Don’t add milk or other dairy products to moisten the puppy’s food. Use warm water instead.

Don’t give vitamins or minerals, especially calcium. The only vitamin supplementation considered acceptable is vitamin C.

Don’t let your Dane puppy get roly-poly fat. You should be able to see the silhouette of the last rib.

Never make diet changes suddenly. Any change should be made gradually over the course of a week.

Allow your Dane puppy as much free exercise as he/she wants. However, never “road work” a young or adolescent Dane until their growth plates have closed.

in http://www.daneangelnetwork.org/puppyfood.htm

[casalc]

Olá Sara,

Bom artigo este que transcreve. É o tipico dogue americano com a sihueta da ultima costela à vista.

Pessoalmente concordo com algumas permissas dos criadores dos "states". A vitamina C é uma delas (já agora, para completar, a dose diária recomendada é 1g, ou seja 1000 mg).
NOTA: Não contem isto a nenhum veterinário. A biblia deles - Feldmann - tem um estudo efectuado com animais a quem foi administrad vitamina C. Nesse estudo, o autor conclui não existir nenhuma vantagem na administração da vitamina C durante a fase de crescimento.

Mas confesso que não gosto do aspecto dos dogues dos 'states'. Gosto deles mais "cheinhos" - (leia-se molossos).

A ideia geral prende-se com o facto de todas as rações premium possuirem uma taxa de proteína mais elevada nas familias puppy. Como os americanos são contra as rações com mais que 24% de proteina bruta, não aconselham as puppy.
Pelo que conheço, cá na Europa toca outra orquestra com uma musica bem oposta. São ideias e gostos.

Um abraço,

[SarahKay]

Mas como resposta e essas rações com muitas proteinas existem já algumas, como a Eagle Pack (que eu nunca exprimentei, mas achei que devia ser boa):

Eagle Pack Puppy Grandes Razas

Puppy Cachorros de razas grandes y gigantes
23% / 12% PROTEÍNA GRASA

formulada para:

• Los cachorros de razas grandes y gigantes - controla mediante la nutrición el crecimiento estructural durante ese periodo crítico entre el destete y los 18 meses. Las proteínas (aminoácidos), la grasa/energía, el calcio y el fósforo se equilibran de forma óptima para ayudar a controlar el crecimiento de cartílagos y esqueleto.
• Aumentar el bienestar a largo plazo del perro adulto mediante nuestro Programa de Nutrición "Bienestar para toda la vida" Nutrition Program.
• Los propietarios de perros de razas grandes y gigantes que requieran una dieta sin soja, con reducción de gases, y altamente digestible con encimas para ayudar a la digestión, prebióticas y probióticas. Los perros con problemas digestivos (el pastor alemán, por ejemplo) se benefician de esta dieta.
• La única fórmula alimenticia para cachorros de razas grandes y gigantes con ensayos clínicos en estas razas y probada durante más de una década. No experimentamos con su perro.

Puntos más importantes del producto:

1. 1. Glucosamina, a niveles más altos que en nuestras otras dietas (800pp; 82 mg/taza), para aumentar el proceso corporal de renovación de las articulaciones.
2. 2. Los 3 antioxidantes primarios, a niveles más altos que en nuestras otras fórmulas, ayudan a mantener sano el sistema inmunológico.
3. Sin soja y sin trigo. El trigo es hoy en día uno de los tres ingredientes que más alergias producen. La avena sustituye al trigo.
4. Omega-Salud, Equilibrio Omega 6:3 ácidos grasos para una piel y un pelo sanos.
5. Contiene nuestros suplementos nutritivos exclusivos "Bienestar para toda la vida" 334 ME (Kcal/taza).

Listado de Ingredientes
Carne de cordero, arroz integral molido, maíz amarillo molido, harina de avena, carne de pollo, pulpa de remolacha desecada, grasa de pollo (conservada con una mezcla de tocoferoles naturales, ácido cítrico y extracto de romero), germen de maíz (desecado y molido), levadura desecada, carne de pescado, linaza, huevo desecado, sal, cloruro de potasio, inulina (extracto de achicoria), hidrocloruro de glucosamina, beta-caroteno, DL-metionina, vitamina A acetato, esterol animal D-activado (fuente de vitamina D3), suplemento de vitamina E, suplemento de riboflavina, suplemento de vitamina B12, ácido d-pantoténico, suplemento de niacina, cloruro de colina, hidrocloruro de piridoxina, mononitrato de tiamina, ácido fólico, ácido ascórbico, biotina, inositol, algas desecadas, SQM (complejos polisacáridos de zinc, hierro, manganeso, cobre y cobalto), yodato de potasio, selenito de sodio, extracto de yuca, enzimas; y DFMs (enterococcus faecium y lactobacillus acidophilus, B. Subtillus, B. Lichenformis).

ANÁLISIS GARANTIZADO
Proteína bruta mín. 23.0%
Grasa bruta mín. 12.0%
Fibra bruta max. 3.5%
Humedad max. 10.0%
Calcio mín. 1,5%
Fósforo mín. 1.0%
Vitamina A mín. 22.000 UI/kg
Glucosamina mín. 800 ppm
Vitamina E mín. 300 UI/kg
Omega 6 mín. 1,6%
Omega 3 mín. 0,17%



(peço desculpa o espanhol...)

Mas confesso que não gosto do aspecto dos dogues dos 'states'. Gosto deles mais "cheinhos" - (leia-se molossos).

Também concordo consigo!

[SarahKay]

Isto em comtrapartida, por exemplo com a Eukanuba:

Eukanuba Puppy & Junior rico en Cordero y Arroz

Un alimento completo para cachorros, para una digestión fácil y una excelente condición de la piel y el pelo.

Crecimiento- todos los tamaños de raza- de 1 a 24 meses
Para una fácil digestión y cachorros que prefieren el cordero.
aporta la energía que su perro necesita durante el periodo crucial de crecimiento.
contribuye a un sistema inmunológico fuerte y sano.
favorece una piel y un pelo sanos.

Ingredientes
Cordero (>14%), arroz (>14%), maíz, harina de pescado, grano de sorgo molido, huevo entero deshidratado, harina de ave, pulpa de remolacha deshidratada, grasa animal, hidrolizado de pollo, levadura de cerveza deshidratada, fosfato monosódico, sal, cloruro de potasio, DL-metionina, extracto de caléndula.

Proteína bruta 27,6%
Humedad 8,0%
Materias grasas brutas 15,8%
Celulosa bruta 2,3%
Cenizas brutas 6,3%
Calcio 1,20%
Fósforo 0,96%

ou

Eukanuba Puppy & Junior Razas Grandes

Un alimento completo para cachorros de razas grandes y gigantes.

De 1 a 24 meses (peso de adulto a partir de 25 kg. ej.: Dogo Alemán, Dobermann)
Para un desarrollo equilibrado de los huesos y la musculatura.
glucosamina y sulfato de condroitina para unas articulaciones sanas.
niveles óptimos de energía y calcio para el periodo crucial de crecimiento.
contribuye a un sistema inmunológico fuerte y sano.
favorece una piel y un pelo sanos.

Ingredientes
Pollo (>20%), maíz, trigo, harina de pescado, cebada, grano de sorgo molido, grasa animal, pulpa de remolacha deshidratada, huevo entero deshidratado, hidrolizado de pollo, levadura de cerveza deshidratada, sal, cloruro de potasio, linaza, fosfato bicálcico, DL-metionina, glucosamina HCl, sulfato de condroitina, extracto de caléndula.


Proteína bruta 26,0%
Humedad 8,5%
Materias grasas brutas 14,0%
Celulosa bruta 2,5%
Cenizas brutas 6,0%
Calcio 0,80%
Fósforo 0,63%


Está também em espanhol para se poder comparar mais facilmente.

[SarahKay]

A ideia geral prende-se com o facto de todas as rações premium possuirem uma taxa de proteína mais elevada nas familias puppy. Como os americanos são contra as rações com mais que 24% de proteina bruta, não aconselham as puppy.
Pelo que conheço, cá na Europa toca outra orquestra com uma musica bem oposta. São ideias e gostos.

Só agora reparei neste pormenor. E quem é que tem razão? Será que o aspecto dos Dogues americanos tem alguma coisa a ver com estas ideias sobre nutrição?

É que também já li qualquer coisa que dizia que as rações com muitas proteinas podem ser um dos motivos que levam a Displaxia....

Uma pessoa lê tanta coisa... começo a ficar baralhada....

[CasadeAnaval]

Não, os americanos têm umas ideias muito particulares obre a corpulência de várias raças.

Quanto á história da ração é cada cabeça, cada sentença. Se uma pessoa não tem experiência o melhor será dar uma ração de boa qualidade como a Hills ou Eukanuba. Finito...

A situação de que se fala de dar complementos de vitaminas ou cálcio só se coloca no caso de: A ração não prestar ou existir alguma situação de saúde que os torne necessários. Nada mais.

[casalc]

A situação de que se fala de dar complementos de vitaminas ou cálcio só se coloca no caso de: A ração não prestar ou existir alguma situação de saúde que os torne necessários. Nada mais.

Não. As recomendações são para todos os dogues e presupõe que são bem alimentados.
The Great Dane - Model of Nobility, da criadora Americana Jill Swedlow, pag 42 e 87.

Um livro já aqui recomendado por si.

Cumprimentos,

[CasadeAnaval]

Em termos de terapêutica é necessário os suplementos para cães cujo crescimento está a correr de forma negativa.

Eu gosto muito desse livro mas não concordo a 100% com ele.

[SarahKay]

Não. As recomendações são para todos os dogues e presupõe que são bem alimentados.
The Great Dane - Model of Nobility, da criadora Americana Jill Swedlow, pag 42 e 87.

Um livro já aqui recomendado por si.

Cumprimentos,

Ainda bem que falaram desta senhora, porque foi exactamente por causa dela que eu me fui informar da ração Eagle Pack:

FEEDING GREAT DANES, ESPECIALLY PUPPIES
by Jill Swedlow

Danes are a giant breed. The amount of growing they have to do to reach adult size in comparison to say, a Golden Retriever, is enormous. In only a year, almost full skeletal size is reached. Compare that to the very slow growth of a human who essentially reaches the same size and weight at adulthood. With bones forming and reforming so quickly, it isn't surprising that much can go wrong in a short time.

Vets and breeders used to think that it was necessary for giant breeds to consume huge quantities of protein, calcium, phosphorous and vitamin D in order to reach their adult full potential. Several extensive research projects have proven that over-nutrition and, worse, over supplementation with calcium, can be the causative agents in the many growth problems in the giant breeds. Now, informed breeders strive to keep growth steady but slow! Great Dane menus are properly balanced and protein is kept to around 24% or lower, especially during the fast growth stages of puppyhood.

I wanted to write an article to help people learn how to read a dog food label in order to select the best quality food. As my research progressed, I became convinced that NO manufactured dog food is really the best way to feed dogs. Some of the ingredients in some of the lower quality foods are frightening. Animals with cancers, animals that have been euthanized (perhaps including pets) with lethal injection (and the chemicals are still in their bodies) animals that are unclean, ad nauseum, literally!

Because most dog foods are completely balanced for all stages of growth, you'll upset the delicate balances if you start adding calcium and other unnecessary items. If the kibble you use does not add vitamin C, this is one supplement you might want to use. 500 mg AM and PM is good. Although dogs can manufacture their own vitamin C, it can't hurt to give them a little extra.

Its helpful to learn a bit about how to read and interpret the labels on dog foods. Poultry meal and poultry by-products are most definately not the same ingredient. Any ingredient which is designated as "by-products" is most likely stuff like beaks, feathers and feet, basically unusable protein sources for dogs. Poultry meal means that the whole chicken has been utilized. Also protein levels can be misleading depending on the source of the protein. A dog food label can list 28% protein but if it's derived from leather dust, the dog will never be able to utilize it. The first ingredient listed on the label must be the highest percentage of the food. Therefore if you see poultry meal as the first ingredient, the chances are that it's a higher quality food. If grains make up the bulk of the first ingredients, beware. This is not to say that just because grain is the first listed ingredient, that the food is no good.

It is also helpful to educate yourself about preservatives. I always avoid foods that use any kind of chemical as a preservative, especially those containing ethoxyquin or BHT. I also avoid any food that uses tomato pomace. This is the left over parts of tomatoes after they've had anything good taken out of them for human use. Now, this in itself isn't particularly bad, but what is left over contains the highest concentration of insecticides of almost any by-product you can name, especially the tomato skin! No thank you!

I'm not trying to come across as an expert on canine nutrition here, but these are things that have worked for me over several litters now. Before I stopped feeding the higher protein foods I never had a litter without some major growth problems. Panosteitis, osteochondrosis dessicans, and wobblers syndrome all raised their ugly heads at times. Since I've kept to lower protein for my litters the only problem was one pup with a mild case of panosteitis. Now maybe it's just been coincidence. I'm not saying that some or all of the above are not inherited. However, if there is an inherited predisposition to these problems, it certainly can't hurt to slow the growth and perhaps bypass the problem.

Once my danes are 6 weeks old, they are all on Eagle Kennel Pack or Eagle Natural Pack. They stay on that for the rest of their lives. I always feed twice a day as a bloat prevention measure. Since most of my girls tend to live well past 8, (thank God) perhaps I'm doing something right. I've always added scraps from the table or leftovers to give them some variety in the diet. Occasionally cottage cheese in small amounts (no more than 15% of the total kibble being fed) and sometimes yoghurt. I also occasionally add raw ground beef, or a raw egg (shell & all) or give them raw carrots or apples or any other vegetables or fruits they like. You'll be surprised how much they love this stuff! Recent studies on bloat at Purdue (1997) have indicated that dogs receiving table scraps and varity in their diets are less likely to bloat than dogs receiving the same food day in and day out.

One reason I love Eagle is because they add probiotics to the food. It is no longer necessary to leave the room when my dogs have gas, as they no longer have gas! (Well, not like they used to anyway!) For a breed as prone to bloat as the dane, this can only be a plus. All ingredients are HUMAN GRADE! I mix this with about 1/4 cup of Eagle Pack canned food (beef, chicken, liver or lamb) and a little warm water.

Even though you feed the best diet in the world, you must also control the dogs weight/body condition. Puppies should be on the lean side. You should just be able to feel the ribs. If he's roly poly and has rolls of skin, he's too fat. At seven weeks most pups are consuming around 1 1/2 to 2 cups of kibble 3 times a day. This will increase from week to week as the puppy grows. Most pups top out at around 3 cups, twice daily by the time they're 4-6 months. However, dogs (males) will often eat more than bitches. I have a young bitch who at 6 months old was eating 5 1/2 cups AM & PM and she was almost too lean on that. She's very tall and VERY ACTIVE!!!!

If you have further questions, please don't hesitate to contact me at: [email protected]

To locate an Eagle dealer near you call 800/255-K9K9 or check out their website at: http://www.eaglepack.com/

Jill Swedlow, SunStrike/Sunnyside Great Danes
in http://www.sunnysidefarm.com/feeding.html

Estava para transcrever apenas parte do texto, mas achei tão interessante que não consegui seleccionar nenhuma parte mais ou menos importante....

E os dogues dela são bem bonitos e nada americanizados:

CH. GOLDSTRIKE LADY IN RED, CD, AOM


Ch. Sunnyside Skylark V. Raseac

[casalc]

Olá Sara,
Aqui já não concordo consigo. Aquela ultima costela, vê-se!
Nos podiuns europeus não se vêm costelas.


Um abraço,

[SarahKay]

Realmente....

Mas a maior diferença (aos meus leigos olhos) parece-me ser na cabeça (os americanos têm uma cabecita muito miudinha), porque as costelas tanto aparecem nuns como nos outros:


Este é um giraço alemão (da alemanha mesmo )


E este é um americanito!

( e depois há também as orelhas cortadas, na alemanha já não há dogues com orelhas cortadas e nos E.U.A. não há sem... )

Mas sem sombra de duvida que os europeus metem os americanos a um canto (e digo isto pondo de lado a minha aversão aos E.U.A. :p )

[Nyx]

eu dou royal canin giant `a minha cadela, ela tem 5 anos, e gosta