Opiniao sobre racao?

[VELOCE]

Era de todo conveniente que os VETS Portugueses se actualizassem, e não continuassem a praticar baseados em mitos, que na maior parte das vezes sãp propagados pelos vendedores de ração de qualidade duvidosa.
(HIS MASTER'S VOICE)

Serão todos estes PHD, DVM e MBA's também idiotas? Este é apenas um de centenas de artigos, que desmistificam que a proteína elevada, afecta o figado.

Patricia Schenck, DVM, PhD, Veterinary Nutritionist-
As regards the concept of protein negatively affecting the kidneys this is simply not the case. We have not found a single study to confirm this position and have mounds to the contrary. I have taken the liberty of copying a few of the studies that are available on-line below. I should perhaps also point out that not all high-protein diets are equal. Some foods generate high-protein by using meals, which are typically high in ash, and therefore high in mineral content of which – you guessed it – elevated levels calcium and phosphorus would be a concern to large breed puppies, and phosphorus in general for kidney health in dogs of all breeds and life-stages. The information below is taken from www.dogaware.com – a great site for general information.

Is a Low Protein Diet Necessary or Desirable?
Following are links to a series of articles and studies on the roles of protein and phosphorus in the diet of dogs with kidney failure. I have provided excerpts from these articles, but I would encourage you to read them in their entirety if you are dealing with a dog with kidney disease, as many of them contain a great deal more information than I will show here.

Dogs with kidney problems by Dr. Lucy Pinkston, D.V.M.
"Because by-products of protein digestion are the main toxins that need to be excreted by the kidneys, an obvious assumption might be that all one needs to do is to cut out the protein and the kidneys wouldn't have any more hard work to do. . . . There is significant evidence, however, that the daily protein requirements actually increase slightly for dogs in chronic renal failure. Therefore, severely restricting the protein for such a dog is likely to result in protein malnutrition, in spite of the fact that the levels of blood urea nitrogen, or BUN (the primary by-product of protein metabolism) would be correspondingly lower." This article contains a great deal more useful information in easy to read format.

Are High Protein Diets Harmful to a Dog's Kidneys? from the Veterinary Services Department, Drs. Foster & Smith, Inc. "The myth that high-protein diets are harmful to kidneys probably started because, in the past, patients with kidney disease were commonly placed on low-protein (and thus low-nitrogen) diets. Now we often put them on a diet that is not necessarily very low in protein but contains protein that is more digestible so there are fewer nitrogen by-products."

The Mythology of Protein Restriction for Dogs with Reduced Renal Function by Kenneth C. Bovee, DVM, MMedSc
"Morris subsequently developed, produced, and sold a low-protein diet, KD, for dogs with renal failure. He and others were influenced by the erroneous work hypertrophy concept for urea excretion advanced by Addis. While experimental or clinical data were never published to support the value of this or other diets, the concept was broadly accepted without challenge in the veterinary literature." This article talks about the history of protein restriction, and about 10 recent experimental studies that have failed to provide evidence of the benefit of reduced dietary protein to influence the course of renal failure. This article is no longer on line, but I have a copy of it that I could send to anyone who is interested in reading it (ask for Bovee.pdf).

Nutrition and Renal Function from the Purina Research Report
"Dietary Protein and Renal Function: Results of multiple studies indicated that there were no adverse effects of the high protein diets." This report also includes information on metabolic acidosis and on the beneficial effects of omega-3 essential fatty acids in patients with chronic renal failure. The complete reports on each of the three studies mentioned in this report are no longer available online, but I have copies of them that I could send to anyone who is interested in reading more, as follows: "Effects of Dietary Lipids on Renal Function in Dogs and Cats" (ask for Brown.pdf); "Effects of Dietary Protein Intake on Renal Functions" (ask for Finco.pdf); and "Acid-Base, Electrolytes, and Renal Failure" (ask for Polzin.pdf).

Feeding the Older Dog from the SpeedyVet Clinical Nutrition Library
"The assumption was that low-protein diets retarded the progression of renal degeneration. This assumption was disproved, using partially nephrectomised dogs, which showed no uraemic signs and had reduced but stable renal function for 48 months. These dogs did better on moderate-protein diets than on low-protein diets. There is no direct evidence that high protein intake damages canine kidneys or that reducing protein intake in dogs with renal dysfunction results in preservation of either renal structure or function."

Dietary Management of Chronic Polyuric Renal Failure from the SpeedyVet Clinical Nutrition Library "Dietary protein restriction improves the clinical signs and quality of life of uraemic animals with both naturally occurring and experimentally induced renal failure. . . . However it is highly questionable whether protein restriction is appropriate in the azotaemic, but non-uraemic patient. The main risk of protein restriction is protein deficiency. The protein and amino acid requirements of dogs and cats with chronic renal failure have not been established, but may well be increased. . . . The main justification for protein restriction early in the course of renal failure would be if it was proven to slow progression of disease. The data that are available do not support this case in dogs. Dietary protein has been shown to affect renal haemodynamics in the dog, however, moderate protein restriction does not alleviate glomerular hypertension, hyperfiltration and hypertrophy. . . . Thus there is no evidence that moderate protein restriction slows the progression of renal failure in dogs, and it is not recommended in dogs which are not uraemic."

Demystifying Myths About Protein from Today's Breeder Magazine
"In contrast, research over the past 10 years or so has shown that protein does not harm the kidney of dogs. In studies conducted at the University of Georgia in the early 1990s, both in dogs with chronic kidney failure and in older dogs with only one kidney, protein levels as high as 34 percent caused no ill effects. . . . In other studies, David S. Kronfeld, Ph.D., indicated that compared with high- or low-protein diets, moderate-protein diets, those with up to 34 percent protein, had no ill effects in dogs with chronic renal failure and were associated with general improvement."

Fortify The Food Bowl For The Aging Canine by Susan Thorpe-Vargas, Ph.D. and John C. Cargill, M.A., M.B.A., M.S. "Because of certain biochemical requirements, the healthy geriatric dog requires about 50 percent more protein than the young adult, and depending on the quality of the protein, it should make up 20 percent to 30 percent of the total calories ingested. . . . Until recently, protein restriction was recommended in an effort to protect renal function. Limiting protein fails to prevent urinary filtration problems . . . Indeed, newer research shows dietary protein is not detrimental to kidney function. On the contrary, protein restriction can result in impaired wound healing, diminished immune function and lowered enzyme activities and cellular turnover. Those dogs with impaired renal function do better with dietary phosphorus restriction; however, limiting this mineral is unlikely to delay the onset of renal disease or to benefit healthy geriatric dogs."

Dietary Management for Clinical Disorders in Dogs from the Journal of Indian Veterinary Association, Kerala "Recent research on dietary protein and the kidney has shown that
- dietary protein does not cause renal failure
- dietary protein does not appear to be involved in the progression of chronic renal failure
- inappropriate restriction of dietary protein may actually have an adverse effect on the normal or compromised kidney"

Kidney Failure from the Iams nutrition symposium
“'For years, physicians and veterinarians have treated renal failure by reducing protein levels in diets,' said Gregory Reinhart PhD, an Iams researcher. 'After working with leading universities, we have now found that restricting protein in a dog's diet may do more harm than good by potentially putting the companion animal at risk of protein malnutrition.'”

Managing a Renal Crisis by Martha S. Gearhart, DVM
". . . at least one study has taken several groups of dogs in kidney failure and fed them diets that varied in protein level and phosphorus level. The groups with severely restricted phosphorus lived longer than the groups with normal or high levels of phosphorus. The protein intake made no difference at all in longevity. . . .
"It is important to remember that phosphorus is more important than protein -- feeding vegetables or salt-free crackers to a dog in kidney failure will not add protein but it will add phosphorus."

Dietary Protein and the Kidney by Patricia Schenck, DVM, PhD, Veterinary Nutritionist "High protein diets cause an increase in blood flow through the kidney (glomerular filtration rate). The myth has been that if the dietary protein is restricted, this will make the kidney work less, and will ‘spare' the kidney from damage. Thus in the past, many have recommended low protein diets to ‘protect' a dog from developing kidney disease. This has been the focus of considerable research over the last 10 years. There has been no scientific evidence to support this theory. The feeding of low levels of dietary protein are NOT protective against the development of kidney disease.
"Reducing dietary protein in the older pet will not protect them from the development of renal disease. In fact, reducing the protein in the older dog's diet may have adverse effects. As pets age, their ability to utilize nutrients decreases. The older pet actually requires a higher level of protein to maintain its body stores of protein than does the younger adult dog. . . .
"Dietary protein restriction is appropriate in renal failure when the disease has become severe. Restriction of protein is based on the appearance of clinical signs. It has been recommended to start protein restriction when the dog's BUN (blood urea nitrogen) is greater than 80 mg/dL [28.6 mmol/L], and the serum creatinine is greater than 2.5 mg/dL [221 µmol/L]. Both BUN and serum creatinine are good indicators of kidney function. Protein is restricted in an attempt to keep the BUN below 60 mg/dL [21.4 mmol/L]. Dietary protein may need to be gradually decreased over time as renal failure progresses."

Effects of low phosphorus, medium protein diets in dogs with chronic renal failure
"In this study, 60 dogs with early CRF were fed either Medium Protein Diet, (CMP group) or a home-made diet (HMD group) which respectively contained 0.36% phosphorus, 27% protein, and 0.38% phosphorus, 21.5% protein on a dry matter basis, over a 28 week period. . . .
"From the results of this study, it can be concluded that many dogs with mild to moderate CRF can benefit from early diagnosis of the condition and dietary management using a diet with a low phosphorus and moderate protein content."

Dietary Protein by Dr. Jeff Vidt, specialist in Chinese Shar-Pei and Renal Amyloidosis
 "Increased levels of dietary protein do not seem to change rate of progression of kidney failure. Protein levels in the diet do not seem to affect mortality, rate of progression of uremia or the development of kidney lesions.

 Decreased protein levels in the diet may impair immune responses, decrease hemo-globin levels, cause anemia, decrease total protein levels and result in muscle wasting. . . .

 Dietary protein levels do not appear to be involved in the progression of renal disease or play a role in the prevention of kidney failure. . . .

 When the BUN is greater than 75mg/dl [26.8 mmol/L] and/or signs of uremia develop, moderate protein restriction is indicated to decrease the BUN and the clinical signs. Phosphorus restriction is also indicated at this time."

Protein Restriction and Kidney Disease Extracts from Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy XII, with links to a number of abstracts:
"In perhaps the most noted clinical trial examining effects of high protein diet on progression of CRD, groups of dogs diagnosed with CRD were fed either high protein diets or low protein diets. No significant difference was observed in the rate of progression of CRD in the high-protein group compared to the low protein group. Therefore, excess protein in the diet did not appear to compromise renal function even in the presence of high endogenous levels of protein associated with the disease. In fact, on an individual basis some of the CRD dogs in the high protein diet group faired better. This finding was postulated to be associated with the fact that protein is required for cellular repair and function."

Note that the above sites are from very traditional sources, including Purina and Iams. I think Hills is the only company still toeing the "low protein" line. The thinking now is that low protein can actually be harmful, and that a moderate amount of high quality protein is desirable for dogs with kidney disease. In addition, feeding reduced protein to dogs with normal kidneys does not help prevent kidney failure.

See http://lpi.orst.edu/infocenter/minerals/phosphorus/ for (human oriented) information on phosphorus and what excess levels in the blood do.

[BigBrother]

Que eu saiba "kidney" em inglês significa rins. Fala-se em fígado e eles vêm com rins As miudezas para eles devem ser todas a mesma coisa

De qualquer forma, gostei desta frase

"Because of certain biochemical requirements, the healthy geriatric dog requires about 50 percent more protein than the young adult, and depending on the quality of the protein, it should make up 20 percent to 30 percent of the total calories ingested. . . .

e uma vez que parece que o pessoal não lê o que realmente interessa vou ter que voltar um pouco atrás

E vejam também qual é a distribuição da energia:

- na Orijen: 45% da proteína : 30% da gordura : 25% dos hidratos de carbono

- numa 30:20: 28.5% da proteína : 43% da gordura : 28.5% dos hidratos de carbono.

Não, não viram a luz. Apenas enfiaram uma cassette nos miolos. E estão a dar uma PÉSSIMA alimentação aos vossos cães e a pagar uma pequena fortuna por ela.

[weimarghost]

Não vale a pena estar a martelar mais na pedra... os nossos vets por cá são todos de d primeira linha, são os Gran Cru dos vets, la creme dela creme... os outros por esse mundo fora estão todos enganados, e as rações com proteina de grande qualidade são um passo atrás no que diz respeito à nutrição para os cãezinhos. Boa!

Mas respondendo concretamente à sua questão, eu não considero que alimentar um cão com uma ração que está no top 10 mundial (quer os vets tugas queiram ou não), seja uma maneira de deitar dinheiro fora.

[BigBrother]

E só a Orijen é que tem proteína de grande qualidade? Nunca olhou para os rótulos das outras marcas, pois não?

De resto, ainda estou no meu sofá à espera dos estudos que comprovam que uma ração a 45/15 é o must da nutrição canina

[weimarghost]

Não, não é verdade, a outra da mesma empresa tem uma optima qualidade de ingredientes... mas eu referia-me a rações com a mesma percentagem de proteina, portanto essa que referiu é a unica a ser comercializada em portugal, infelizmente...

[BigBrother]

Por acaso a outra da mesma empresa está cada vez pior Quanto a rações com o mesmo teor de proteína (e gordura ...) da Orijen, ainda não percebeu que não têm qualquer correspondência com as necessidades do cão? Para essa ração ser alguma coisa de jeito tinha que ter o dobro da gordura. É assim tão difícil de perceber?

[lunaemia]

Big brother, pá
depois de todo este discurso, concerteza não se incomodará de relembrar aqui ao people mais novato quais são então as suas marcas de eleição pois não???

Encerrava o tópico em beleza!

[weimarghost]

Discordo completamente, primeiro porque as outras gamas estão exactamente cada vez melhores a todos os níveis(a nova gama foi lançada em Julho com melhoramentos significativos na qualidade da proteina, niveis de condroitina e glucosamina superiores-não existe outra com estes indices-e mais quantidade de alimento por saco... nada piorou... mal informado e informa mal todas as pessoas que estão no forum. Depois porque os níveis de gordura são os necessários para as diversas etapas da vida dos cães. Apenas as percentagens de proteina são deficientes nas outras referencias do nosso mercado.

[BigBrother]

Considera usar ervilhas um melhoramento na qualidade da proteína? E aumentar os sacos de 15 para 18 (ou diminuir de 20 para 18 kg - tudo depende do ponto de vista ) algum avanço significativo? Quanto aos níveis de condroitina e glucosamina aumentaram de facto um pouco, resta saber se fazem alguma diferença

De resto, as outras marcas têm proteína suficiente, a Orijen é que tem proteína a mais

[Kikas123]

[Editado pela moderação (tlopes)]

[weimarghost]

Estamos a tornar este forum mais atractivo, até porque estava morto... e só lê quem quer...

[BigBrother]

Ora até que enfim que concordamos nalguma coisa

Para a Kikas123, as regras da Arca rezam o seguinte:

Se acha que determinada mensagem não tem interesse para si simplesmente ignore. Poderá ter interesse para outras pessoas.

[dinodane]

Pois eu acho que está bastante interessante e que tem bastante info para quem a quiser processar e pôr o cérebro a funcionar.

[weimarghost]

Uma questão:

- Quem tem um cão, nomeadamente de raça gigante, com displasia de anca deve previligiar uma dieta específica?

[dinodane]

Com certeza que deve. Um cão displásico não pode sofrer de excesso de peso, aliás é a primeira área de intervenção do dono para ajudar a recuperação do animal.